Shane Kelly (Part 2) (3 038)
Ethical Hacker Shane Kelly, describes the culture of working on open source projects.
Transcript:
EVIDENCE OF SHANE (part 3 038)
Q. Can you just describe it -- five boxes and here are all the people that work on it. Is it quite interesting?
A. It will just go on forever. It really will.
Q. What is that list?
A. That is a list of firefox contributers and credits.
Q. How many people do you reckon have contributed to firefox?
A. I do not know. I really don't know. You know, I would say probably thousands because not everyone is obviously listed on that list. You have patchers and sometimes, you know, there is an argument whether people should be listed in the credits and they submit two or three patches. It is up to the project.
Q. But firefox is entirely open source? COuld you say that as a full sentence.
A. Firefox is open source.
Q. Could we go back to your story you have into open source stuff when you were very young 12 or 13 and how did that interest develop?
A. The interest developed just by playing. Obviously I say the curiousity what ran me into it -- the idea that I wanted to learn to code and I think that anyone learning to code, whether they do think to look at Linex, I think it is definitely, definitely worth it because you are not only creating stuff on a platform that allows people, it allows for the contribution because when you are starting programming you might develop an application that you might not think much of but it could be incredibly useful to someone else. They could take that and they could -- someone else could -- develop on it and bring it into a project.
I think that, you know, the curiosity I think if you have curiosity, if you have the willingness to learn and if you have the ability to collaborate and work with other people because that is what you are going to get essentially from Linex. Anyone with those qualities, like myself, would benefit from open source. I mean I certainly have.
Q. So you started getting more and more interested in it and what were the next steps on your journey to where you are now?
A. It was just learning -- learning from the community, learning how the community works, learning how other people contribute, learning how the system works and just learning, essentially, all the APIs and all the code to contribute really. That is all it is.
Q. How did that turn into doing the course that you did how did that work along side your normal school work and things?
A. I think that I mean you are asking how I got from being curious to becoming interested. I mean what I am interested in mainly for the moment is the security. I am interested in the security and with Linex you have a lot of security things to look at. A lot of jobs you know, I am trying to think of a way to sum this up.
With open source you can look at code and it gives you the ability -- open source gives you the ability to look at code and I can look at bugs, how bugs occur, how security vulnerabilities come about and looking -- it gives you, looking at other peoples code and looking at how security vulnerabilities exist in applications can learn how to prevent them from occurring in the future and, being interested in security, I am interested in how to prevent bugs occurring in software, especially security vulnerabilities. So looking at other people's code and looking at how that all works is very important, you know, to stop it from occurring in the future. That is the reason, from the security -- I have always been interested in security from a curiosity point of view and that is one of the reasons open source stuck out for me is because of that. Does that answer your question.
Q. Sort of yes. (I NEED TO CHANGE BATTERIES)
(A short adjournment)
A. (4.57) Obviously creating is a logical thing because coding financially is very logical thing and people enjoy doing that and people enjoy doing it over a time. I do not -- I just don't see why you would want to code completely.
(A short adjournment)
Q. Yes is that can you say that again why what is good about this? What is good about the whole open source thing?
A. What is good about the open source thing is that someone, a programmer, can lock himself in a room and say right I am not going to submit this. I am just -- I want to be the sole developer and I am going to code this and distribute the application once it is done and not give away the code. I mean, yes, that is good. You are coding but you don't -- the problem with that is when you are a coder the advantage of giving away a code is that people can come back and say, yes, I wanted to add this feature and it was not quite there yet and to get what is best from the software, because you know what someone else put in might benefit thousands and thousands of other people and by having that collaboration, I mean people get their say and people contribute to the code you can get more valuable software. You are not just getting what one person wanted of the software and also which may be a good thing or bad thing but with open source software you don't one person that is responsible for the code -- so -- which is -- you don't have one person kind of dominating the code. You don't have one person saying this is, you know, this is the way that the project -- I mean you can say this is the way the project is going to go but I'm talking -- there is no one person dominating the code so that no one else can contribute but with a open source model you can have the collaboration of multiple, thousands, of people essentially adding value to your software which is what is best for the software.
Q. So this is the best way to develop software?
A. Yes. I would say it is the best way to develop the software because from the sole view of -- ignoring all the freedom, for a business, the value of the software -- the value of open source -- is that you are getting software that is developed, you know, it is not developed by a company with sheer profit in mind, you know. It is about doing it, created by the people for the people, essentially. So it is created by the people that use it and, because of that nature, you are getting software that is is intended, designed and intended by the people that use it. So you are getting software that, you know, you are getting software that is designed for not with profit in mind sort of thing, if you see what I am saying.
Q. So it really works?
A. It works, yes.
Q. And it works in an you know a very practical way I suppose?
A. Yes.
Q. So I mean those are all important where a company might make something that is going to look very SHREUBG or very appealing for people to buy have all these gimmicks I suppose things that people tend not to gimmicks if they are doing it themselves they probably just add things what they call it scratching an itch or something.
A. Yes.
Q. How do you describe that difference -- you already have in a way -- but what are the sort of changes that people want to make how do you describe the changes that people make and the improvements?
A. (8.50) Again, it really depends on the project and the project's needs but some people say, for example, on word processor, for example, you know, I really like this word processor. I like the way it works but it doesn't export it in this particular format that I want to export it in. I want to export it as a PDF document and it doesn't do that and then, so, I added the functionality and here it is if you want to you know. It is -- I mean with open source it is not really inventing the wheel. The reason -- I want to get across to you the reason open source works so well is that you are not designing again. I mean what is the point of designing an entire operating system and then doing it again, other than obviously for learning. But what is the point in redesigning an entire something that already exists, something you can contribute to. It is really about extending existing code and it is about --
Q. Giving building on other peoples ideas?
A. Yes, building on other people's ideas. Yes.
Q. We did not quite get the have not still got the story element -- can you just try and take us through then I did this then I did that then I arrived here then I finished my GCSEs. Have you finished your GCSEs?
A. Yes.
Q. And now I am going to do whatever just take us threw kick quickly?
A. (10.30) I think the way that I got into it is from a very early age I was curious about computers. I wanted to be able to deal with software and computers because I had that creative nature and I wanted to be able to -- you know programming by nature is very logical and I like that kind of logical thing to programming. So I got into Linex because I wanted to look at other people's code and I wanted to look at how people are doing and, you know, I had an interest in security and how security works and by looking at other people's code I could see how security vulnerabilities come out out to being and looking at that code and then learning how to prevent future bugs from possibly occurring by seeing patterns in how it works. So, you know, I took a couple of security courses after finishing my GCSEs and I took a couple of courses and that is really how it worked for me, so.
Q. Now what are you going to do A levels?
A. No, no, well, I am -- at the moment I have got a job but really I am interested in doing security and security consulting, essentially, security annalizing and that is the area that really interests me.
Q. Where are you going to work?
A. Where am I going to work. I do not really know to be honest with you. I will just have to wait and see.
Q. How are you confident that you are going to have a job and that you are not going to A-levels?
A. I do have a job.
Q. You do have a job?
A. Yes.
Q. All right what is your job?
A. I am a data annalist at PWC.
Q. Wow, how did you get that?
A. (12.25) I think they took me on because of what I have done, because they thought he has potential so they thought, you know, I will go out training to sort of work in business. The reason I am working with the company is because I thought, you know, I did not want to do A-levels. I didn't think they were quite -- they did not quite fit my niche, like, the area I want to go, so taking that business challenge is why I did it, because I like challenges and I like being able to push myself through that extra boundary and with open source, for example, diving into open source, diving into a completely different world and being able to to code and help other people really pushed boundaries for me, so.
Q. It is pretty exciting to be 16 and be offered a job at having a job at a massive company it is amazing. How do you think that has happened to you?
A. Again, I am not really sure but the thing about open source is it really doesn't matter how old you are. You could be 60, 80. You could be 100. Everyone benefits essentially. Anyone that uses a computer for generic purposes -- anyone can benefit from open source software. I mean the code is out there. Just use it. It is free essentially. You can submit our own patches if you are a programmer but maybe you are not a programmer. Maybe you just give feedback to developers so that they can add in the ideas that you think -- you know, you go on formus, go and say this software is very good but, maybe, I am not a programme are but I would really like to see this feature so, you know, and a lot of developers are very open to ideas. So I think that, no matter who you are, no matter what age you are, I think you can benefit from open source software.
Q. How do you feel to have been offered a job at your age. The other people must be quite old?
A. Yes. Quite young but no. I don't really think about it that way. I think about it I do not really think about my age when it comes to these things. I just see myself as anyone else that is interested in open source. I am a bit of a newcomer but I do not think that really matters when it comes down to things. I think people judge you by not what you are but what value you add and what potential value you can add to things.
Q. Quite nice the good thing about Pricewaterhouse Coopers as well is that they recognise not you as someone they are not just looking at your qualifications, they are looking at your skills?
A. That's right, yes.
Q. How would you describe that do you think this would have happened 20 years ago or that things are changing a little bit to be more open?
A. Well, I think the existence of open source -- there has always been the idea of potential, people have potential, but the idea of open source has really brang about a new revolution essentially of people that are willing to contribute, of people that have creative ideas and people putting it into action now. 20 years ago free software did exist. I mean maybe 40 years ago, when computers did not exist, we had the idea of sharing information so the idea has always been there but it is technology that has really brang the medium, such as the internet -- the idea that there is no geographical boundaries with the internet, so you could be contributing on a project with someone else on the other side of the globe and it is really that kind of, you know, the community, the internet has brang this collaboration all together from, you know, from people interested in this it.
Q. What do you think Pricewaterhouse Cooper think about that?
A. I do not know. They are not really -- I would not say they are such an open source company so.
Q. They must be just to be able to with you working at it, they must be quite open minded do you think?
A. I do not know. I think we will have to wait and see.
Q. A bit though just to be wanting to employ someone like you they are looking beyond your the traditionle qualifications.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you agree with that?
A. Yes, I mean I think it was mainly the security services location that they were looking as kind of a role and there was a role opening at the time and they just accepted me and as taking me on and training me so.
Q. Very exciting all right so could we do what I would like to do is try and get some shots of you.
(A short adjournment)
Q. What I think is really exciting is yes sharing knowledge. Why do you think they do that companies are now doing that an bit more google the 20 per cent time when they get one die a bay day a week why are companies changing to do that sort of thing?
A. (18.03) I think the idea because with propriety software, you are creating that application. You are the only person that is going to be developing on that application. You are the only person that can develop on that application. With open source you are allowing other people to invest in your softwear. You can save time essentially by allowing other people to come and in and add features which you are probably going to implement and allowing other people to do that is obviously going to save you time and money. So I think the idea of open source is in general very distributed and it will obviously add to your company brand and your public relations.
Q. But why would a company let people do have twenty per cent of their time to do whatever they want why would a company allow them to develop their own project on work time what is the point of that?
A. I guess the main point is because it allows for people to kind of do what they want to do which is always, you know, the kind of thing that.
Q. Isn't it because at the end of the day it is going to make them HAERP in their lives they will produce more stuff if they work on what they TWAPBT to work on they are probably going to do a better job of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe that?
A. (19.40) Well, I mean the reason people would work on -- the reason companies would allow their employees to work on open source projects is because it invests in a community and which obviously would increase their public relations and it would increase their employers happiness because it gives them the freedom to choose what they like and what they would like to see(say?) and it gives them a sense -- it is like charity, isn't it? It gives you the sense of doing something for someone, ultimately, that other people are going to use. You see things like the one apple per child project which allows -- which is an open source -- which is a laptop project which contains open source projects. Some third world companies can not afford big software licences and by allowing them to use open source software, we are not only reducing our costs but it will allow them to see how our -- we are sharing information with them essentially. We are sharing how we code. We are sharing all those benefits with them who can probably contribute back, which will probably benefit everyone.
Q. Companies are set up to make money all they want to do is make money but I think what is happening is people are seeing if they get their customers to do that if their employees are help if the employees chose where they want to go.then they get alot more value out of their employees ...
A. That's right yes.
Q. Who you would you describe that sort of change?
A. How would I describe the change?
Q. The change to that from the old model of keeping everything hidden?
A. I think the kind of idea is that no one knows best. No one knows how to code best. No one knows how software -- how to write the best software in the world and everyone knows that, in order to succeed in society, we are going to have to share with each other and sharing of information and the sharing of knowledge has brought around the idea that the software is not the most important part of your business, you know. If you are a software company, software is not the most important asset -- it is your people -- and about how they can invest into your company and what they do for your company and I think the idea that sharing information, and that information should be free, has brought about change in the way that we see and the way that we see software companies view their employees.
Q. Do you think not just software companies but all companies?
A. All companies? Not the ons -- only the ons that use open source I would say but not all companies have yet adopted this open source. So I really think that as soon as companies start adopting open source, they will start seeing the advantages of open source and of the collaboration that it brings so.
Q. Open source it can provide anything where information is what is being traded. It does not just have to be software. An organisation could be designed in a open source softwear where everyone can contribute to the ideas that companies have or if it is I do not know even something like a bank one of the things we are doing is a case study PHRAOEUG it to a organisation in an abroad ER broader sense. Do you think that is a viable thing to do?
A. (23.49) Yes, I mean I think that open source doesn't have to be applied just to software. If it is not just about software. It is an ideology and the ideology can be applied to all aspects of life and in particular software is information and it can be plied to information very easily like Wikipedia -- you know, the distribution of information and the sharing of information. By keeping information locked away, which is essentially what closed source software is doing, is essentially locking everyone else off from knowledge whereas no one knows everything. So the idea of people being able to contribute on what they think, on what they are good at -- so someone might be an expert on plants, someone might be an expert in cooking -- and the idea of sharing the knowledge is how, essentially, our society will benefit from it, essentially, and it can be applied not just to information but, you know, to all aspects of life. Sharing in general and the idea of, you know, not being selfish is how -- I can not really think of the err, ["HUMANS WILL SURVIVE!"] Yes.
Q. Great well look break break.
(A short adjournment)
(typing noise up until 28.34 on time ER. Then dad comes in to ask how it is all going at 30.39 I have very polite yes yes very good just finishing up really: Quote: he is a bit of a jeans your son and dad says well of course we see all sides, oh yes says I have *EUF. Event all goes very quiet at about 40 but can just hear our Shane saying that is the good thing about the internet, you can meet people. Useful maybe?)
